Chapter Text
The Statistics:
- Offense: Dumbledore Extreme Diff
- Defense: Dumbledore Extreme Diff
- Dark Arts: Grindelwald Mid to High Diff
- Defense Against the Dark Arts: Dumbledore Mid to High Diff
- Physical Strength: Relative
- Physical Durability: Relative
- Equipment: Grindelwald Unknown Diff
- Combat Speed: Dumbledore Extreme Diff
- Reaction Speed: Grindelwald Extreme Diff
- Agility: Dumbledore Extreme Diff
- Stamina: Dumbledore Extreme Diff
- Flexibility: Dumbledore Extreme Dif
- FSIQ: Dumbledore Extreme Diff
- EQ: Dumbledore Mid to High Diff
- Battle IQ: Dumbledore Extreme Diff
- Dueling Skill: Dumbledore Extreme Diff
- Transfiguration: Dumbledore Extreme Diff
- Charms: Relative
- Elemental Magic: Relative
- Healing & Magics of Sustaining During the Duel: Dumbledore Extreme Diff.
- Apparition Skill: Relative
- Potions and Herbology: Dumbledore Extreme Diff
- Mastery of More Sophisticated Magic (Astronomy, Study of Ancient Runes, etc): Dumbledore Extreme Diff
- Attack Potency: Relative
- Power: Dumbledore Extreme Diff
- Hax: Dumbledore Extreme Diff
- Non-Verbal Casting: Relative
- Wandless Magic: Dumbledore Extreme Diff
- Potential Prowess in Melee Combat (Armed or Unarmed): Dumbledore Extreme Diff
The Opening:
Ah… The legendary duel between Albus Dumbledore and Gellert Grindelwald. The duel of legends that might, sadly, never be truly shown due to how Fantastic Beasts was shelved by Warner Bros. Although I harbor no ill-will towards it and I do sincerely wish it well in the new Harry Potter tv series, I still find it a lament that they couldn’t have at least made a movie showing Dumbledore and Grindelwald going it. It’s always been one of the biggest “what-ifs?” ever since I entered the world of fiction, and now I am going to finally express exactly how I imagined the battle unfolded. Before we get to the details, I suppose I would like to express the things that I firmly believe am core to the entire exposition.
First of all, I would say that while “Harry Potter” Albus Dumbledore definitely had more live experience and wisdom, as it was specifically stated by source materials that it would be the experiences with the conflict against Grindelwald that would lead to him becoming the elderly wizard we all know and love, “Fantastic Beasts” Albus Dumbledore definitely would have the edge in terms of raw magical power and dueling skill. Perhaps he lacked some of the later magical knowledge his older self would obtain, but it’s almost apparent that it would not be enough for his older self to best his prime self if they ever fought. He even casually admitted to Slughorn, when Slughorn asked about what happened to his hand, that he could feel his age slowing his reflexes and dulling the potency of his magic.
Another note of comparison, in 1945, Dumbledore WON the Elder Wand from Grindelwald: As Grindelwald was stated to be nearly as powerful as him and Dumbledore stated he was only a “shade more skillful”, that meant that in terms of sheer raw power, it meant that, in my personal opinion, Dumbledore was powerful enough that he was already at the apex of magical power AND Grindelwald was also nearly that powerful so the Elder Wand only evened things out between them in terms of raw power. It would make no sense if Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald by being slightly better if Grindelwald had a decisive edge in terms of raw power. If the Elder Wand made him that powerful to where Dumbledore couldn’t fight him head-on, then even if Dumbledore was more skilled, he would likely have lost against an opponent who was very near his level of skill AND powerful enough to ensure it wouldn’t matter much.
There is also the fact that while he used the Elder Wand time to time, it’s highly unlikely he ever used to it’s FULL potential: At best, it served to likely bring him back to as much of his prime level power as it might have been able to without truly getting to that level ever again. No one ever seemed to question how Dumbledore could still remain as powerful as he did despite being so old, and nor did they believe that he needed any actual aid, so he must not have demonstrated magic that was truly incredulous enough that they would be suspicious of him. Even Voldemort himself never seemed to really suspect that Dumbledore had the Elder Wand until he truly began to search for it and realized from seeing Grindelwald, and he’s the guy who would like to pretend he’s better than Dumbledore, so the fact he seemed to have not suspected Dumbledore had any booster to his magic spoke volumes, when you think about it.
He likely never used the wand to it’s full potential, and even the fact that he might have did things like repairing Hagrid’s wand (Again, it’s implied, but not fully confirmed, that the umbrella Hagrid used was actually to conceal his wand) and sending away an entire group of Dementors with an incorporeal Patronus (To compare, Harry needed a Love-infused corporeal Patronus to drive that many Dementors away) can be debated as it not being so much impossible and needing the Elder Wand’s full power as much as he simply was THAT powerful, and knew more about magic, than when Olivander claimed that a wand as damaged as Harry was could not be repaired by any means necessary. Like, we’ve seen how, when things are truly IMPOSSIBLE, even Dumbledore couldn’t have done it, as made clear by how he clearly seemed to know the counter-curse to lifting normal petrification and COULD have likely removed it if it was done by a curse, but since it was done by a Basilisk, he had to rely on Mandrakes, nor was he able to handle some of the curses and jinxes Voldemort used.
Secondly, as Dumbledore made it clear, he and Grindelwald, at least with Grindelwald using the Elder Wand, were equally matched in power and the only advantage Dumbledore had was that he was a shade more skilful. That duel was considered the most epic duel ever fought! So it’s clear that Grindelwald would relatively compare to Dumbledore in most fields and in areas where Dumbledore surpassed him, it was only by a very slight or narrowly slight margin, as depicted in the statistics above. While I am not sure if Dumbledore and Grindelwald really fought for 3 hours, although the fact that the duel was said to have happened at dawn seemed to make it more likely, it could definitely be said Grindelwald was a MUCH more fearsome opponent to Dumbledore than Voldemort was.
In terms of sheer skill, at least, it’s evident Grindelwald had much greater precision, much sharper instincts for combat, and a better mind for using magic appropriately: Part of what makes him such an interesting villain is that unlike Voldemort, he rarely seems to rely on destructive power alone and prefers to rely on flexibly using magic proficiently to match the situation. Even the one time where he actually used a truly destructive spell, Protego Diabolica, it made Voldemort’s use of fire look like an amateur. And when we see him fight Dumbledore directly, unlike how even an older Dumbledore could casually handle Voldemort while not even trying to KILL him, although the duel was cut short, it spoke volumes as to how Grindelwald NEVER used too big spells: Instead, he went blow-to-blow with Dumbledore while giving him clearly more trouble into predicting his attacks than Voldemort’s brute-force ever did as he used precise apparition and crisp spells that left behind so little openings that it eventually ended in a draw, making it clear that it would take a VERY long time for Dumbledore to be able to outmatch Grindelwald.
Grindelwald also had a much more frequent basis of dueling and defeating opponents, as Voldemort, in contrast, only handled opponents who were powerful enough to be a threat to him and even then, those people could somehow provide a good fight to him. Grindelwald also had a much more solid foundation of defeating multiple opponents at once: He didn’t even need any destructive magic to dominate literately more than twenty Aurors and they were dropping like flies before him, and when he actually wanted to use destructive magic, his displays were always more controlled and never wild, as one can attest if they’ve seen how he easily dispatched the guards trying to bring him to Azkaban after MACUSA had held him long enough and later manipulated Protego Diabolica to dispatch an even larger number of opponents instead of just releasing the fire and disapparating away laughing like Voldemort likely would. That already ensured he would be significantly more experienced in actual COMBAT than Voldemort, who, while definitely enormously knowledgeable and with much experience dabbling in magic, seemed much less experienced in an actual fight and had to get by with raw power and an arsenal of magic wider than most.
There was also that while Voldemort was considered the most dangerous dark wizard of all time, it was ON Britain. Grindelwald operated at a much more international scale, and it was never stated that if the rest of the world believed Voldemort was truly the most dangerous dark wizard. Even Rita Skeeter acknowledged that Britain, having not experienced Grindelwald, might not be entirely accurate to judge Grindelwald as beneath Voldemort, and it was equally likely that Voldemort was considered more dangerous because he was FAR more worse than Grindelwald ever was morally.
Even the fact that Voldemort might have more technical knowledge and skill in the deepest of the dark arts can be debated: Voldemort's army of Inferi were just mindless, water-logged puppets—zombies enchanted by a dark animation charm to tear things apart. Grindelwald? We don't know if Grindelwald ever actually created Inferi but while he initially believed he needed the Resurrection Stone, in the Secrets of Dumbledore, he literately animated the newborn Qilin so perfectly that it retained a functional imitation of its sacred, magical properties and created a living illusion convincing enough to fool the entire ICW! If Voldemort was capable of that, reanimating fallen Aurors or magical beasts while retaining their specific magical traits to build a conscious, functional puppet army, he absolutely would have as that would have been more preferable than Inferi. This implies he actually COULD not while Grindelwald HAD the knowledge to perform that kind of esoteric necromancy. Again, perhaps this was because Grindelwald was less inclined to dabble into the most twisted of the dark arts, that he did not show too much esoteric dark magic whereas Voldemort freely did horrifying feats.
(And even if we count the fact that Dumbledore himself admitted Voldemort was the most dangerous, it’s clear there was a subtle word-play there. Yes, Grindelwald was likely more powerful and skilled, on top of being a FAR better duellist, but he wasn’t exactly in the position to, like, compare Voldemort to Grindelwald, was he? He didn’t want anyone to know about what happened between him and Grindelwald, so why would he compare Grindelwald’s powers to Voldemort. Besides, he could easily be subtly admitting that while Grindelwald was a far more formidable threat, Voldemort was several times more evil while at least Grindelwald had more noble intentions and was capable of showing some legitimate morality)
With all the theories laid bare, what was the hypothesis? Simple: It was that the duel between Dumbledore and Grindelwald was FAR more of a back-and-forth affair than the duel in the Ministry Atrium. It was a duel where they both threw all the cards they had at each other while willing to kill: Even if they likely still loved each other, both Dumbledore and Grindelwald would likely know at this point the other HAD to go. They fought to the death and Grindelwald SURVIVED. Voldemort? He fled soon enough. Even in the films, where it seemed more evenly matched, the moment Dumbledore got up and clearly hinted he was quite willing to keep going, Voldemort actually looked AFRAID, as though realizing that if he kept this up, he would lose.
If Voldemort had fought to the end, he might not be killed due to his Horcruxes but his body would likely be destroyed and he would have to recreate it AGAIN. Grindelwald might have lost, but he went down swinging and STILL lived. The fact that they actually fought at dawn, while Dumbledore and Voldemort at night, only further made a certain symbolism: While Grindelwald had the skill, the instincts, and the power to match a prime Albus Dumbledore in a fair fight and made it close (For poetics, you could say Grindelwald’s shadow darkened almost as much as Dumbledore shone brightly in that fight), even if that Dumbledore might lack some magical knowledge possessed by his older version, Voldemort fought Dumbledore at night while Dumbledore was held back by not trying to kill and also trying to keep Harry safe and therefore proved that, amongst the “top three”, he was a coward who faltered even despite knowing his immortality meant Dumbledore couldn’t really kill him, not truly a “Dark Lord” but rather a man who had immersed himself so deeply in the darkness he only became weaker, although much less moral and therefore more dangerous in a way, instead of greater.
(Note, Callum even stated, when he and the cast were asked on who they think would win in a duel between Grindelwald or Voldemort, that “Harry took him down”, and THAT further highlights their difference: Voldemort lost to a much less skilled wizard because he lacked the refinement and the humanity to comprehend the power of Love and to understand that the moment he sought the Elder Wand, his fate was sealed. Grindelwald, on the other hand, NEEDED someone who he rivalled in terms of power and was very nearly the equal of in terms of skill to fight him before he would be defeated)
The Dynamics of Power:
Before we get to the deeper, sophisticated stuffs of spellcasting and skill in various fields, we must start by dissecting the ways with which their powers evened things out, along with also the way with which the Elder Wand likely worked, instead of the whole “invincible, unbeatable wand” thing.
First of all, as stated below, the Elder Wand’s powers might be great, but NOT to the point where it truly allows breaking the absolutely impossible. It could enable people to cast spells more magically powerful than possible, perhaps, but it’s powers are not unlimited. And I believe, in this case, the limits lay in how Grindelwald was already so extraordinarily powerful, so close to the pinnacle of wizardry in terms of raw power, that the Elder Wand could offer little, enabling him to match Prime Dumbledore completely in terms of sheer magical might but not actually surpass him. This was also likely why Dumbledore couldn’t exceed the level of power his prime self had: At his prime, he literally could match blow-to-blow with an Elder Wand wielding dark wizard already nearly as powerful as himself, and now that age had sapped that power, the same wand that he won could enable him to approach that prime level of power, but it wouldn’t enable him to return to that magical dominance when the wand already LOST to his original prime level of magical strength. There was a gap, perhaps not too big, but not small enough to be covered.
This meant that, when they fought each other, if their spells clashed, they would likely end up in a relative stalemate (Even the films showed this, where when Dumbledore and Grindelwald’s red jets collided, Grindelwald initially pushed the jet to Dumbledore’s but then Dumbledore managed to push the jet back when he actually tried, and yet it didn’t seem like he was going to overpower Grindelwald, as Grindelwald was able to slash away the connection).
They could also comfortably block and deflect regular spells from each other as they were equals in terms of power and so their shields would hold. Even in terms of counter-curses and counter-jinxes, if Grindelwald cast a dark spell, Dumbledore would be able to dispel it by knowing the countermeasure without Grindelwald being able to overpower him. If they were to cast powerful spells against one another while the other blocked it with particularly powerful defensive magic, then it would be entirely up to chance, depending on the exact affinity and attributes of their respective spells, who would win if their magical strength was even.
So in terms of raw output, they would be evenly matched, as they could release just as much destructive and defensive capacity against one another to where it depends on their skills and knowledge as to which spell would win out. That's why Dumbledore said to Harry that he and Grindelwald were evenly matched, and it was only through being a "shade more skillful" that he managed to win. However, as stated, that "shade" of greater skill likely meant that while they could output the same level of power against each other, Dumbledore might have exceeded Grindelwald a little bit in terms of the rate of fire and swiftness of releasing said power. Potency is one thing: The ability to release and display enormous amounts of magical power with haste requires mastery over said power reserves.
I’ve read some fics where the Elder Wand was depicted as enabling greater efficiency in casting spells, but I… Personally don’t see it like that. If that were to be the case, then, again, it would be too overpowered and Dumbledore would have likely lost against Grindelwald. Even leaving aside Grindelwald and Dumbledore’s lingering love, if that wand was able to enable perfect spellcasting, then how did Egbert the Egregious “slaughtered” Emeric the Evil in a duel to claim the wand? Dumbledore even stated that there has been more occasions than recorded where the Elder Wand was defeated in fair duels than one would expect, and as the wielder of the Elder Wand, he likely had serious perspective to acknowledge that. Likely, that wand granted power but required actual skill to maximize. That was what made Grindelwald and old Dumbledore so formidable, because they had so much skill already that the Elder Wand served as a booster but even without it, they would likely still remain the two most powerful wizards to ever live (In case of old Dumbledore, the most powerful wizard active).
So in the end, while Grindelwald’s own power efficiency was likely miles ahead of any other wizard, against Dumbledore’s, he fell just a bit short, perhaps. This meant that while they originally started out evenly matched, as the duel dragged on and they both started to use more powerful and archaic magic, Grindelwald started to lag behind as he was likely used to overwhelming opponents swiftly by then and so while his efficiency meant he would still be fearsome, to Dumbledore, it was challenging, yes, but he could start pushing back as his efficiency enabled him to more precisely modulate his power and direct it with precision as to produce slightly greater results with slightly less expenditure. It was likely this shade superiority in magical efficiency that meant that, by the end of the duel, if they were to clash spells one final time, Dumbledore would manage to win because he had just as much magical power as Grindelwald… But he also had greater efficiency in directing his power.
Overall, you could say that their power dynamics perfectly capture the essence of how their paths had diverged: Grindelwald started out his journey into the darkness seeking the power of the Deathly Hallows, intending to use them to become unbeatable and to usher a new reign of wizarding supremacy, and while he didn’t neglect his own powers and skills unlike Voldemort who stopped after having pushed the boundaries of magic sufficiently enough, that meant he still had the weakness of relying on SOMETHING outside of his own natural abilities. He was confident in himself without the need of overt self aggrendizement, but he still desired power, even if for a more sympathetic cause than Voldemort, and therefore proved he was not the “Master of Death”, for he feared Dumbledore, even if that fear did not stop him from still bravely facing his former lover, and it was only AFTER his defeat that he finally became worthy of the title of “Master of Death” as he defied Voldemort to his face and died for something greater than his delusional, even if noble and tragic, ideals.
On the other hand, Dumbledore had spent years since their split mastering himself, refining his natural abilities and relying on no external aids, sticking to his wand that had served him well precisely BECAUSE he had the power needed to be the greatest even without it. He learned the importance of being content and satisfied with what he had after Ariana’s death, and so chose to continue growing while embracing not extreme ideals but humility and service to the greater wizarding world. He didn’t fear Grindelwald not because he underestimated him, but because he knew how powerful Grindelwald was and still chose to face him despite whatever risks to himself. He might have been confident (and had even said so to Harry) that he could defeat Grindelwald assuredly, but he was under no delusion it would be an easy fight nor would it be a fight without risks that he could potentially suffer permanent debilitations. As Grindelwald did not have that confidence to risk himself while Dumbledore had, relied on just ONE shortcut while Dumbledore never considered the idea of “shortcuts” again, thus did Albus Dumbledore prove himself the one truly worthy to be considered the “Master of Death” out of the two from the start.
In short, Grindelwald was the ultimate expression of already immense power amplified, in his case by an artifact that would likely have served a much weaker wizard much more efficiently, the greatest example of what it meant for a dark wizard to directly fight opponents. He was much more formidable than Voldemort because, in a way, he could be said to be the upgrade of what Voldemort was, only with none of Voldemort’s detrimental traits yet still with touches of pride, extremism even if much more earnest, and the inability to truly use either the best or worse traits of humanity to their maximum benefit (Yes, Grindelwald at least DOES comprehend emotions much better than Voldemort, but as we’ve seen with Queenie and Credence, he does have the tendency to slip up).
But Dumbledore? Dumbledore is the ultimate expression of pure natural magical power and skill, the greatest example of what it meant for the power of good to directly confront the darkest of evils and win. who continued to refine and develop his skills in a natural way without resorting to boosters, and who lacked any of the flaws of pride, hubris, and extremism reaching to the level of true darkness while also embracing the humanity inside him and using it to make him stronger. Therefore, when you pit either Grindelwald or Voldemort against Dumbledore, their defeats were inevitable because Dumbledore knew his weaknesses just as much as his strengths and could draw on the power that was the very source of magic, emotions, to secure the win, no matter what handicap or advantages that might be with or against him.
The Dynamics of Bodily Attributes:
Let’s face it, firstly: While, yes, it was unlikely that the fight would include too much physical elements, one still has to consider all the facts. An older Dumbledore demonstrated physical prowess that looked like it could match, if not surpass, a much younger man, while Grindelwald also seemed to be physically fit considering how easily he remained balanced on the carriage while escaping and he could nonchalantly drag an adult person with one hand. In addition to how Dumbledore would naturally not neglect his body just for magical skill, let’s give Grindelwald credit where credit was due. He definitely wasn’t bigoted enough to consider physical exertions as not worth his time, and even the cast of Crimes of Grindelwald outright stated that if Grindelwald and Voldemort fight fist-to-fist, Grindelwald would easily win (And the one time we see Voldemort actually resort to physical, it was when he was so enraged by Harry’s continued survival in the film and he didn’t even seem to do any actual damage to Harry, just causing some pain to him). Even their brief duel in the Secrets of Dumbledore actually became physical, where they both seemed to relatively compare to one another in terms of most physical attributes. So let’s break it down, shall we?
In terms of physical strength and durability, they were likely rather even in their primes. Like, when Grindelwald and Dumbledore fought close-range, they both had no problems pushing their hands away from each other when in the dance frenzy and even grappled with each other briefly without overpowering one another before they had that infamous hand touching heart moment. That meant that if they actually fought physically and up-close (Which seemed likely, considering how, as their fight went on and gradually turned against Grindelwald, Grindelwald likely might resort to scuffling out of desperation and sheer emotion), they wouldn’t be able to outright overpower one another in struggles of strength and would have to rely on leverage and other considerations. I think they could also harm each other and dislocate or fracture the other’s bones, if they really went that path.
Durability, stamina, and endurance to pain are much more important, of course: It’s almost certain that neither Dumbledore or Grindelwald fought without injuring the other until Dumbledore finally disarmed Grindelwald. They definitely fought and landed spells at one another, likely more than a dozen of spells. Leaving aside their healing spells, to be able to keep fighting in such a high-stakes, protracted duel where it’s IMPOSSIBLE to avoid getting hit, they would need to fall back on the base trait of all human bodies. A much older and physically weaker Dumbledore had the endurance to not even flinch when slicing his hand with a knife to unlock the cave, the stamina to shrug off the coldness of the waters of the cave (In comparison, Harry was left shivering), and the resilience to keep going after having drank that potion in the Cave. Even an older Grindelwald managed to survive in Nurmengard while physically degrading for decades.
As such, it’s almost certain that they both had the durability to take raw-force spells from one another and withstand being knocked down or through objects of impact like trees or walls without much damage as to keep going and ultimately walk out of the duel without being permanently crippled. Like, older Dumbledore didn’t seem limped in any way and even Grindelwald didn’t seem like he had been physically crippled despite losing, so clearly they came out of whatever damage they endured in the duel without any permanent trauma even if they might have endured scars. They would also have displayed the endurance for pain as to shrug off whatever sensation they felt and, likely, even keep going as to counter the spell or push back the other hard enough to break the spell if they were hit by spells like Crucio or another. Grindelwald was much more likely to do this to Dumbledore, but Dumbledore might also get to do things like wrapping Grindelwald in something that caused him considerable pain, so they both needed to endure it and keep going.
On the other hand, I think that in terms of stamina, Dumbledore actually had a slight edge over Grindelwald. Grindelwald had likely never pushed himself too hard because while he fought in many battles, most likely many of those fights were over quickly. On the other hand, Dumbledore had likely travelled for some time before he went to France and later to Hogwarts, had likely pushed himself and exerted himself as to remain in good shape more intensively, and that would mean he would have the ability to handle the prolonged duel better than Grindelwald would. That would likely be one of the deciding factors: I can imagine Grindelwald panting and kneeling on one knee while Dumbledore was still standing, even if barely, and breathing a bit less hard before they cast their final spells.
In terms of speed and reflexes? Well, they both are, to put it simply, quite literally absolute monsters. We’ve seen how Grindelwald could deflect spells from more than 20 Aurors at the same time while Prime Dumbledore showed serious, lightning-like reflexes when he fought Credence and even his older version moved faster than what Harry and Neville could react to. I personally think that Dumbledore would be slightly faster directly, as he seemed to be a bit ahead of Grindelwald when they were running before Dumbledore fired a spell at him and he disapparated. However, perhaps due to Grindelwald having likely fought more duels than Dumbledore, not that it saved him, he seemed to also have slightly greater reflexes, as he reacted quickly enough to intercept Dumbledore’s spells with his own shortly after having disapparated and he almost hit Dumbledore with a spell when he charged at him while having a slightly easier time reacting to Dumbledore’s spells even as Dumbledore fired more spells at him up-close.
On the other hand, in terms of agility, Dumbledore likely would have the edge. While Grindelwald was clearly no slouch in agile movements and his sense of balance was most highlighted when he casually, almost playfully, remained steady on the Incarceration Carriage while it was moving at high speeds before attacking, the older Dumbledore was able to jump into the seventh trunk of Moody, which was used by Crouch to hold the real Moody while disguised as him, and landed gracefully on his feet, with his landing being only of light impact, before climbing back up with Moody on hand without issue. It’s also quite likely that while Grindelwald could and would move at vast speeds, he preferred to move methodically and with as little motion as possible while Dumbledore was perfectly fine with high-speed movements and actively engaged in that when active. That meant that while they could maneuvere at a roughly comparable extent around each other and remain steady even if they had to jump or the like, Dumbledore might be able to take the advantage at times by having greater experience with agile-based movements.